Transcript

Wendy Cohen

Hello, Powerhouse Smart friends and colleagues. Here we are again, another wonderful day having our opportunity to interview our fabulous cool collaborator, Ms. Pamela McNally, who I am a raving fan of hers. So welcome to our next episode of Powerhouse Cool Collabs. Really this collab, this whole idea is I get to pull together some people that I have in my business life who love collaboration and are really the coolest leaders in design, building, construction, and real estate. And so without further ado, let me introduce or let Pamela tell us her story. Pam, welcome.

Pamela McNally

Thank you, Wendy.  Although I have to take a little bit of umbrage at the, I don't think I'm cool and I'm sure my kids would say I'm absolutely not cool. But thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm a fan of yours. I'm a fan of your conferences. I think they're amazing.

You know, I think you get to the root of this, of the trends that are happening now and going forward. So, and I'm always very honored to be asked  to either present or moderate or even attend.  So thank you.

Wendy Cohen

My blessings to you. When you speak, it's like the room is, you could hear a pin drop and people are just like mesmerized. So I'm always thrilled when you can fit it into your busy schedule and you'll, I'll be seeing you February 4th and 5th coming up at the Naples Luxury Conference.

Pamela McNally

Absolutely. Looking forward to it. You know what's interesting to me is I love speaking to people.

I love big crowds. I love engaging with them. But when, if you knew me like 30 years ago, you would never have known that because when I first started out, I gotta say Wendy could not speak in front of anybody. Total tongue tied, you know, could almost like would be throwing up. It was that bad. 

Wendy Cohen

Oh my.

Pamela McNally

Seriously. So when I tell people who come up to me afterward and ask me, how can you be so natural? Because you know me, I don't like podiums. I like to walk around.

I like to engage. I don't like to just talk with people. You know, and so many people today  when they do these presentations and talks, they just talk.

I'm so not interested in that. I love talking to people and hear their point of view, even if it's different than mine, which is so often not the case today where people don't wanna hear a different opinion. So to me, when people ask me, it took me a long time.

 It doesn't happen overnight, but if I can do it, let me tell you something. Everybody can do it because I was like the poster child of like shy, not wanting to talk to people, could not get in front of people. So the fact that I can do this today tells you a couple of things.

One, first of all, I'm old. So I guess when you get older, it doesn't matter. You know, does not matter.

But two, I had some great, great opportunities given to me by the people at different companies where I had been. So I wanna say kudos to them for letting me try and keep trying, even though I failed. (3:03) I failed in the beginning, but that's okay, right? Failure is a good thing because you learn from it. So I have to say that my story really was a lot of failure to finally get where I am and to have, again, grateful for the leaders that I work with to learn from that gave me opportunities. And, you know, didn't kick me to the curb when I did fail. 

Wendy Cohen

 Yes, absolutely.

So let's dive in just a little bit because there's some people that I'd be shocked that they don't know your whole story of where, you know, where did you start in your career in our industry? And then where are you today? Because people here will want to reach out to you. 

Pamela McNally

Well, let me just say that I start, my love is media, right?  So I've been in media my entire career, starting at the bottom of the barrel, an editorial assistant. And let me tell you something.

(3:51) I always find that if you are young, take anything, (3:55) any industry you want to get into, (3:56) take anything they give you because you can learn. (3:59) And I learned everything. (4:01) So in a recent post I did, I talked about how, you know, (4:04) going forward because of AI that, you know, (4:07) specialists in one tiny area, niche areas (4:10) are probably going to be minimized (4:13) and people that are more multi, (4:17) I don't know how you put this, (4:18) like that have knowledge in different areas (4:19) and different departments are probably where (4:21) you're going to want to spend your time (4:23) or people you're going to want to hire.

(4:24) So that's me because I have to say, (4:27) I grew up in media doing everything from, (4:29) you can consider like production, buying paper. (4:33) And then when of course digital came around, (4:36) an editorial I wrote, I edited, video, (4:39) all the things you could think about. (4:40) And then when digital came along, (4:42) spoke to my heart and my soul because you know me, (4:45) I'm fast, furious.

(4:46) My pace is really, like I said, pretty fast. (4:51) So I, and I love the fact that you can make changes (4:54) automatically, didn't have to wait weeks. (4:57) So to me, digital is where my heart was.

(4:59) So I started out at, I hate to say it a long time ago (5:02) at something called the Shet Media, custom media, (5:06) which is today, you know, part of advertising, (5:08) then moved into a niche publication (5:11) called Niche Media Regional Publications, which I loved, (5:14) you know, oversaw about 30 to 40 of them. (5:17) That's no longer around. (5:18) Many of these companies today are no longer around.

Wendy Cohen

(5:21) Interesting. 

Wendy Cohen

Pamela McNally

(5:22) Just, just, you know, I'm old (5:23) and let me tell you how old I am. (5:25) Because when I was growing up, (5:26) Hyundai Nast was the place to be.

(5:29) Everyone was like, we want to be there. (5:31) And it was the epitome. (5:32) I mean, everybody looked up to it.

(5:34) I would never fit in. (5:35) I was never the type. (5:36) First of all, too outspoken.

(5:38) I don't like heels. (5:39) You know, that just wasn't me. (5:41) No, seriously, like it wasn't me.

(5:42) But I got to say, and you look at it today, (5:45) it's like that media landscape is barren. (5:48) Like all of the brands that we thought were like amazing (5:52) and what we looked up to are no longer. (5:55) So went through traditional media, regional media, (5:59) landed at Interior Design Magazine, (6:01) which I have to say, (6:02) still one of my favorite magazines in the world.

(6:05) And spent 10 years there really in the design industry (6:08) learning bottom up from some of the greats. (6:10) I mean, I have to say Cindy Allen was the editor. (6:13) Learned so much from her.

(6:15) Learned so much from Adam Sandow, (6:16) who I actually started with, an amazing guy. (6:20) You know, and then from there, (6:23) you know, went to kind of went up the ranks a little bit, (6:27) moved into Sandow General. (6:30) Didn't oversee Lux, (6:31) but work with them closely on their digital strategy.

(6:34) Had a great team. (6:36) And I got to say, (6:37) I can't say enough about my experience at Sandow (6:39) because it allowed me to do so much. (6:41) And that's really where I found my rhythm, (6:43) where I found my rhythm speaking to large groups, (6:46) where I found my rhythm talking to brands, (6:48) creating really deep partnerships (6:50) that were not predicated on just print ad advertising.

(6:57) So from there, went to my most recent position, (7:00) which is National Kitchen and Bath Association. (7:03) Have to say kudos to Susie, who was my boss. (7:07) Susie Williford brought me in.

(7:09) I had no experience for associations. (7:12) I knew Kitchen and Bath, (7:13) but only from the design standpoint. (7:15) So kudos to her for bringing me in.

(7:17) Kudos to her for allowing me to do the things (7:19) I needed to do there, (7:20) which is help elevate the brand, (7:22) modernize, great team there. (7:24) And then today, to be quite honest, (7:27) I'm really kind of in between opportunities and challenges. (7:31) I moved, so I'm very happy I had time (7:33) to kind of get myself settled (7:34) because nobody ever wants to move.

(7:36) It is the worst experience in my entire life. (7:41) So now I'm just looking for my next challenge. (7:43) And I, let me just say this, (7:45) I wanna say thank you to you (7:46) and for everybody else who supported me, (7:48) has reached out, given me opportunities, talked to me.

(7:51) I have to say, you don't really realize (7:55) the depth of friendship in this industry (7:57) until you're in a situation like, (7:59) I'm like, okay, I'm in between jobs. (8:00) It's gonna reach out, see what's out there. (8:02) And people have responded so, (8:05) I have to say, just, we're very kind.

(8:08) So thank you to you for making connections for me (8:10) and for everybody else. (8:12) Such a great industry, by the way, design. (8:14) Design is wonderful.

Wendy Cohen

(8:16) Absolutely. (8:17) And I have to say the last two firms (8:18) is where I got to know you at Sandow first (8:21) and then at NKBA. (8:22) And you're so humble (8:24) because what you did for those two organizations, (8:27) yes, of course, they mentored you, (8:29) they had faith in you, they brought you in, (8:30) but you were part of the trajectory (8:33) of the growth of Sandow.

(8:34) I remember when Sandow first did (8:36) their first Chicago Lux magazine. (8:38) I'm sitting with Mike Rowe and, yeah. (8:41) And so you were so part of the Catalyst team (8:45) that just brought that.

(8:46) And then NKBA, yeah, what, you're gonna say something. (8:49) 

Pamela McNally

I was gonna say, that really wasn't me. (8:51) I was there, that was, (8:52) I was not part of the original team there for Lux.

(8:55) You can't pin that on me. (8:56) That was really all Adam driving that (8:58) when he was out of one office in Boca. (9:00) And I remember him, he had his, (9:03) he had an office that was open to everybody.

(9:05) And I said to myself, (9:06) this is the guy that I want to work for and with. (9:10) And I have to tell you, he was a major mentor. (9:13) And then when he brought in Pete and Erica, (9:18) and Erica is the one that I still am quite close with, (9:21) learned a lot of the business from her.

(9:24) But gotta say, I mean, definite, (9:26) I would say Sandow's where I really kind of (9:28) grew into my own, (9:29) but that was a great team, a great learning ground. (9:32) And like you said, NKBA allowed me (9:33) to take everything I learned there (9:34) and bring it to a brand that to be honest, (9:36) really wasn't maximizing its potential. (9:40) And I have to say now, (9:42) they are moving into the high-end resi space, (9:46) doing global, major, it's a great association.

(9:50) That's all I can say. (9:51) And I love the chapters and the designers (9:52) that are part of it and the people that are part of it. (9:54) What a great, great association.

Wendy Cohen

(9:57) Yeah, there's a lot of heart at NKBA. (9:59) And I have to say, again, (10:01) I had been a custom home builder from a past life (10:03) and then being powerhouse, which is kind of a give back (10:07) and then recruiting and consulting. (10:09) NKBA was just like the rest of the associations, (10:11) very nice and wonderful.

(10:13) But when you were there, I mean, (10:15) I just felt like huge changes and much more had a pulse (10:19) on what was going on with how we could really be a value (10:23) to our members and to the industry as a whole. (10:26) So that's just from the outsider in. (10:29) And then, again, I got much more involved with KBiz (10:34) and just there was a big change from just an association (10:39) to really, we're gonna be the industry, (10:42) kitchen and bath industry.

Pamela McNally

(10:44) So what's interesting to me is, (10:45) I've become this person that's kind of an agent of change. (10:48) If you don't want change, you don't hire me. (10:50) If you don't want someone who's gonna push forward (10:53) and radically kind of revamp who you are, you don't hire me.

(10:58) So I have to give kudos to not only Susie Williford (11:01) who hired me, but also Bill, who is the CEO of NKBA, (11:05) who allowed me to do the things I needed to do. (11:07) Without that type of leadership, (11:09) that open, honest leadership that allows you to do, (11:13) to make those changes and it makes people uncomfortable. (11:15) Let's all agree, change is not something that people like.

(11:20) It's not something that most people embrace, (11:23) but if your leaders and the people at the top (11:25) allow you to make those changes, you can do anything. (11:29) You can go anywhere. (11:31) You can really expand like we did with NKBA.

(11:35) So I have to say my time there was a joy. (11:38) I loved being there. (11:40) I loved my team.

(11:41) But again, I'll just say, I gotta give credit to Susie (11:44) for bringing me on board. (11:45) No association experience, but she saw something in me (11:48) that she felt that NKBA needed at the time. (11:51) 

Wendy Cohen

Yep, absolutely.

(11:52) And so it's very easy for me to reach out to my audience (11:56) of owners of companies, media companies or not, (12:00) anyone in our industry and say, oh my gosh, (12:04) you've got to, if you're thinking of hiring, (12:06) certainly this is a high level leadership position. (12:08) I mean, you literally took companies (12:10) and made them what they are today. (12:13) So I will continue to do that.

(12:15) And I think the conference, and of course, (12:18) I will continue to do that because I am a Ravy fan. (12:21) And the conference will give you that opportunity (12:23) with a lot of firms that will be there (12:25) both in and out of the media, (12:27) but within our luxury design world. (12:29) And I'm gonna follow you and hope (12:33) that we can continue to gather, (12:35) create these collaborations for our audiences.

(12:38) And that's what's my passion is knowing (12:41) that you're gonna come to the conference (12:42) and you're gonna meet someone, (12:43) you're gonna say, I'm gonna introduce you to so-and-so (12:45) and I'm gonna, and that's what helps everyone grow. (12:48) So it's like a labor of love, right? (12:51) 

Pamela McNally

It is a labor of love. (12:51) And let me just say, you have to love what you do.

(12:53) I think that at this stage of my career, (12:56) it's not just about finding a position. (12:58) It's about finding a position that challenges me, (13:01) that I wake up every day saying, wow, (13:03) I really wanna be here. (13:05) It's about having a team that you really can embrace (13:08) that really has the same vision as you, (13:10) that is willing to kind of go with you down that path.

(13:15) I mean, cause you can't do this without a team. (13:16) So none of those brands I worked at, (13:18) it wasn't me alone at all, because I have to be honest, (13:20) I'm not the smartest person. (13:21) You know what it is? (13:22) I just have drive and I work really hard.

(13:25) So those are the two things. (13:26) If you ever talk to people, (13:27) that's what they would say first. (13:28) It's not that I'm brilliant or smart or any of that.

(13:31) I think you all are much smarter than me, (13:33) but I'm just driven and I have a vision and you know what? (13:38) That's what makes things successful. (13:41) But it's definitely about, you have to love what you do. (13:43) You love what you do.

(13:44) I can hear it in your voice. (13:45) And you have to be at a company where, you know what? (13:48) Their culture, super important, you know, transparency, (13:52) leadership, which is willing to give back to the employees, (13:56) leadership that's willing to embrace honesty (13:58) and tell people even good or bad, (14:00) what's happening and going forward. (14:03) You know, I'm just a big proponent of that.

(14:05) And as I've gotten older, I've kind of decided (14:07) I'm not just working for anyone. (14:09) I have to work for people that I, (14:11) I gotta admire, respect and that challenge me (14:16) and that aren't afraid when someone disagrees (14:18) because I have to be honest, I think you know me by now. (14:21) I'm one of those people.

(14:22) If I don't agree, I'm gonna tell you I don't agree, (14:25) but it doesn't mean that we have to argue. (14:27) It just means I'm gonna give them my point of view. (14:29) And if my boss says that's not the way it is, (14:31) I'm like, okay, I just wanted you to hear my point of view.

(14:33) So anyways, that's kind of who I am. (14:35) 

Wendy Cohen

Well, with my recruiter hat on, (14:38) I have to say you are like the perfect candidate. (14:40) And I am almost sure someone who is so fortunate (14:44) is gonna scoop you up and you are going to be able (14:48) to make the same kind of an impact you've made (14:50) on your past employers with your past teams.

(14:52) And how lucky, wow, we're just gonna see (14:56) what you can do next. (14:57) That'll be amazing. (14:59) So before we depart, (15:00) I always like to ask my guests a few questions.

(15:03) So my first question for you is, (15:05) how would you define living with an attitude of gratitude? (15:09) 

Pamela McNally

Living with an attitude of gratitude. (15:12) Wow, how would I define that? (15:15) I think that you should, I mean, again, (15:17) I think everybody should be confident in who they are, (15:19) but I also feel like I said myself every day, (15:23) even though I hate to say this and maybe, (15:24) but there but for the grace of God go I, (15:27) when I see someone who's less fortunate. (15:28) And I think every day, I'm very thankful for who I am, (15:31) for my family, for my friends, (15:33) for how I've gotten to where I am, (15:35) because I have to be honest, (15:36) without that group supporting me, I could never be here.

(15:41) I am a confident person, but I have to say, (15:43) I'm humbled by some of the people that I meet (15:46) that are doing things that are so, (15:49) that give back to the community, (15:51) that support even without any accolades. (15:55) So to me, I guess that's what I would say. (15:58) That's how I define it.

(15:59) I don't know if that fits into what you're thinking, (16:03) but that's how I would define it. (16:05) 

Wendy Cohen

No, I definitely agree. (16:07) Giving without expecting anything in return (16:09) and just every day waking up and saying, (16:12) hey, this is amazing.

(16:14) I'm alive and I have another day. (16:16) I can make an impact. (16:17) 

Pamela McNally

And you're healthy and your family is healthy.

(16:19) I mean, I think in today's world (16:21) and what's happening all over, (16:22) we should all be grateful for that, (16:23) that we are here in the States, (16:25) that we are not at war, that we are not in a situation. (16:29) You know, yes, it's difficult. (16:30) Let's all agree.

(16:31) It hasn't been easy, but at the end of the day, (16:33) you know what? (16:33) We're blessed to be in this country. (16:35) 

Wendy Cohen

Yes, absolutely. (16:37) And so one of the other pillars (16:39) that the Powerhouse Cool Collab podcast is about (16:43) is helping humanity.

(16:46) And so I guess I'll ask the question this way, (16:49) what is your definition of a life well lived? (16:54) 

Pamela McNally

Gosh, a life well lived. (16:57) I would say I feel like if my, (17:00) I guess what I would say is twofold. (17:02) One is my family, my children.

You know, if they end up being good people (17:07) and giving back and then I'm proud of them, (17:09) I feel like that is core of who I am. (17:12) I mean, I have to give kudos again to my family (17:14) for helping raise them because I was busy doing, (17:17) trying to climb up that corporate ladder. (17:19) But still, I would say that having my daughters (17:22) especially be strong, fierce females that, (17:25) you know what, are out there and driving like I drive, (17:29) but also giving back.

(17:30) So that's what I would say one and two is, (17:31) if I can make an impact on someone, (17:33) if I can help somebody, if I can help them, (17:36) whether help them move up the ladder, (17:38) help them open their eyes to certain things (17:43) in terms of education, I guess that's, (17:47) as I've gotten older, (17:48) I feel like helping people along the way is what you should. (17:50) It's mentoring, but it's also mentoring (17:53) without expectations. (17:54) It's not officially mentoring, but helping people.

(17:58) And I've done a lot of that in the last couple of months. (18:00) People ask me for advice and I give it to them. (18:02) You know why? (18:02) Because I do believe in good karma.

(18:05) I'm gonna give out and I'm not expecting payment, (18:07) I'm not expecting anything. (18:08) But if you hear anything, you know, circle back to me, (18:11) but I am all about helping people. (18:12) I don't know, maybe I've become a little soft (18:14) in my old age.

(18:14) My kid would say, mom, what the heck happened to you? (18:17) I'm like, I don't know. (18:18) You know, I feel like giving back in today's world, (18:21) there's so many people out there that need help (18:24) or that don't have as much, so. (18:27) And you're a shining star, you're a soul.

Wendy Cohen

(18:30) And I believe we're all souls here (18:32) having a human experience. (18:34) And I know we call it mentoring or training (18:37) or helping someone, (18:39) but truly it's being in service of others. (18:41) And, you know, this life is about being together (18:44) and uniting is, you know, just love.

(18:48) It's all about love, right? (18:50)

Pamela McNally 

You know what's interesting? (18:51) I believe if you talk to somebody who's half our age, (18:53) I don't know if they'd say the same thing, (18:54) which I think is a bit of a difference. (18:56) So I have to tell you, (18:57) I have talked to some people in technology (19:00) about, you know, possibly joining their companies (19:02) or, you know, just talking to them. (19:04) And I have to say, (19:04) there's a little bit of a different focus.

(19:07) And that's all good. (19:09) Everybody each to their own, but for me, (19:12) yes, we all have to make money (19:13) or companies have to make money, (19:14) but I want to do in a way that I can be proud of. (19:17) 

Wendy Cohen

Right, that's right.(19:18) Yeah, no, I agree. (19:19) You know, you're in different phases of your life, (19:21) even when I, like you, was going up the corporate ladder, (19:24) you know, you're so focused (19:25) that you almost can't see the force between the two. (19:27) You're just, I gotta, I'm doing, I'm doing, I'm doing, (19:30) between food on the table (19:31) and the kids doing their activities (19:33) and doing your corporate report you have to do (19:35) and presentations.

(19:37) But as you get older, you get to take a deep breath. (19:40) And I hope the next generation, the younger generation, (19:43) my kids and your kids and their kids, (19:46) take a little bit of what we're saying (19:48) and try to incorporate it sooner (19:50) rather than later, (19:51) because really stop and smell the roses. (19:55) Remember that, you know, you're, you've got an, (19:57) you can make an impact and you don't have to be (20:01) neglecting all that's around you (20:02) and appreciating all of that.

(20:05) 

Pamela McNally

Well, I'm going to tell you, (20:06) my daughter just got back from Italy. (20:07) My other daughter, you know, spent a semester in Paris. (20:10) I gotta be honest, they have a lot more opportunity, (20:12) a lot more, what I would say, (20:14) opportunity to live their life in a way that's joyful.

(20:17) Not saying I didn't, (20:18) but to me, it was all about nose to the grindstone, (20:21) getting things, like you said, food on the table, (20:23) focused on going up that ladder. (20:25) So for them, I think it's an opportunity (20:27) for them to have that balance. (20:29) Whereas for me, even now, I love to work.

(20:33) So, so wrapped up in my psyche that my kids are like, (20:36) mom, you're driving us crazy. (20:38) So my house was my project. (20:39) So I made my house my project, you know, (20:41) and then some other things that I was doing (20:43) to help out the community.

(20:45) But I would just say, you know what, (20:47) just be grateful for what you have. (20:48) You know, be kind to others. (20:50) Come on, really, let's all try to be kind.

Wendy Cohen

(20:53) Yep. (20:53) And so I ended one of my videos (20:55) that I put on LinkedIn and YouTube (20:57) and podcast with Namaste. (21:00) And my daughter said, mom, wow, (21:02) for you to do that in a business setting, (21:04) you're really being authentic.

(21:06) And I'm like, you know what, that's what it's all about. (21:09) So I'm going to end this podcast today saying, (21:13) Pam, I love you. (21:14) I can't wait to see you in person.

(21:15) And I will forever be here to, you know, (21:19) be your biggest cheerleader and to help whatever I can (21:22) put you in a position to impact more people. 

Pamela McNally

(21:25) Thank you so much, Wendy. (21:26) That's so kind of you.

(21:27) Thank you. (21:27) 

Wendy Cohen

Okay. (21:28) Have a wonderful, happy holidays.

(21:30) See you in February. (21:31) I'm here if you need anything just to click away (21:33) and look below in the link, (21:35) you're going to see how to get ahold of Pam. (21:37) I'll have her email there and her LinkedIn profile.

(21:41) And I know that certainly if you can't make it in February, (21:44) that Pam will make herself available to chat (21:47) with any of our leaders, right? (21:49) 

Pamela McNally

Always, always. (21:51) Okay. (21:52) Okay.

Wendy Cohen

(21:52) Thank you. (21:52) Love you. Bye(21:54) 

Pamela McNally

Namaste.